Last Wednesday I attended my first meeting of the Provocateurs, a sister group of the Freethinkers, led by Fred, the science journalist who was kicked out of his church for talking about evolution (yes, Toto, we’re still in Kansas).
The purpose of their meeting is for dechurched or disillusioned people to discuss weighty matters of ethics, morality, belief, and life in an open, respectful, casual environment. Our makeup that night was four Christians, an ex-Mormon, and several atheists. I was especially impressed that so many turned out that evening since the outside temperature was 7 (how very glad I am the window in the ghetto Beamer is fixed).
Fred kicked off conversation with the question, “What is one action that you would consider moral?” The amount of agreement in our answers was impressive considering the diversity of belief systems. Answers included: caring for someone in need, honesty, standing up against injustice, and refraining from murder (ok, that’s more of a negative of an immoral act, and we didn’t all agree on the definition of murder). The next question spurred more disagreement, “What is the source of morality?” Offshoots of this question included, “Does morality change with time, culture, and situations? Must morality be given to us by some objective being outside the material world? If morality is doing more good than harm, how do you measure and balance harm and good? Would superior alien life forms view us in the same light that we view goldfish?”
Unfortunately, I had to leave before we delved into the second topic of the night, “if there were (is) no god, would we have to invent one?” inspired by a quote from Voltaire. My answer? Yes, yes we would.
What I especially appreciated about the evening, besides the scrumptious fruit dip (how did you make that, Jennifer?), was that as much as we disagreed, we did not attack one another. Instead, everyone listened to and respected each other, and we all came away with at least a little more knowledge, a little broader minds, and a little deeper friendships.
Unless, of course, something went terribly awry after I left.
6 comments:
This Bill Tammeus blog must be a bloodbath.
If the notion of all religions were wiped out right now, along with the memories, would we start again with polytheism? Or what if we did not bother? What would be our higher standard?
Stich,
Great "philosophical" question of "what if" and "what about clean slate?"
I think psychological evolution requires "fear, uncertainty, looking for explanations of natural phenomenon" for a species to survive.
How they cope with it is different for each. Chimps and Bonobos only a few years ago were separated into separate species and they have totally differnt cultures, attitutes towards sex and relationships, domination, from humans and other apes who are separated from us by about 6-9 mln years of evolution.
Animals do it on their moral field, we evolved humans on our own. None are superior or interior, all being equal, it's those who have the capacity to outcompete (humans) will emerge as winners.
Considering "bird's eye view" like this, there is no reason to believe that it could have ben a mundane form of religion/philosophy like Buddhism/Hinduism and not "theism" of Xianity, Islam and Judaism that could have ruled the world for a few thousand years.
Check out these links - a very simple "selection" pressure has a profound effect on "morality/behavior" and "appearance" of a being.
Studies like this are the most telling example of why we need to look at "reality based" thinking as our "higher standard"
We cannot change the past with religous dogma, we can only change present and future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDb27ZP9zEE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enrLSfxTqZ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR-GHmuumAw
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5E1E597E2A4D483B&search_query=russian+silver+fox
One thing is a consolation, in other parallel universes, this just happened and going on - the clean slate is just a "standard"
Not a higher one, but just "is" if you know the defintion of what "is" is :o)
Thanks, Bill Clinton!
Dagney, Glad you could join the discussion.
Stitch, there have been many attempts to wipe out religion, and for some reason they have always failed.
Even when our friend Iggy here, who came from such a country, uses the propaganda tactics that he was raised under, the results are the same.
In fact, I have never understood why he places such faith in tactics that ended up destroying his own homeland.
By the way, I notice that he is using the "paralled universes" argument atheists often use to avoid facing design and fine tuning arguments.
But strangely, for all the supposed emphasis on evidence that he spouts I have never seen him produce a lick of evidence for any of that stuff.
Whatever.
I will check them out, Ig.
Gold, sometimes propaganda has to be refined, and adapted, for it to function.
Freethinking is a good example. Same old agnosticism, different lingere.
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